My Observations of the Outpouring in Lakeland, Florida
A great revival took place in Wales in 1904. Sadly there is little to show today for the effects of that revival. Two years later the Pentecost revival started at Azusa Street in Los Angeles. The black church where it started actually closed around 1930. But the revival it generated continues to include more than 400 million people around the world today.
The difference between the two revivals is that the Pentecost revival has actually been a "series of revivals" that has happened again and again over the years-- the Latter Rain movement and the healing revivals of the late 40's; Full Gospel business men that started in the 50's, along with ministries emerging such as Kathryn Kuhlman; followed by the Charismatic movement of the 60's in the mainline Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic church. Then there has been the Faith movement, the Apostolic movement, and various revival outbreakings in places like Toronto and Brownsville.
The latest outbreak of revival is apparently in Lakeland, Florida. It started with meetings with Todd Bentley on April 2 at Ignited Church pastored by my long-time friend Steve Strader. I've know Steve since I was in the 9th grade and he was in the 6th grade when his father Karl Strader came to pastor the church my family attended in Lakeland. That was also the church where Rodney Howard Browne's ministry really took off in the United States with extended meetings back in the early 90's.
(This revival with Todd Bentley started about the time that we had a death in the family so I was not able to go down to the services until Monday, May 5-- the 34th continuous day of the revival. By the time I attended, Lee Grady and others had been to the revival and had given their analysis. If you missed Lee's analysis you can CLICK HERE to read it. Before I attended on Monday I was also beginning to get critical emails about the revival, expressing cautions, etc.
As I've covered the move of the Holy Spirit for the last three decades, I know that anytime there is a genuine move of God, it is guaranteed that certain people will automatically oppose it. These people oppose any move of God that is beyond their own religious experience. The sad thing is that some times they will have some valid criticisms that people like me tend to discount because they are so negative.
Some people also question Todd Bentley's past. He has quite a "testimony" that actually was first reported in Charisma several years ago. But there are those who feel that a person who is less than perfect can't really be used by God. Actually I believe that the Bible teaches that "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise" (1 Corinthians 1:27, NIV).
Also, at one of the meetings recently Paul Cain was given a place on the platform. Unfortunately Paul Cain has disqualified himself from ministry due to various sins in his life he has confessed to including drunkenness and homosexuality. Other ministers have worked to restore him, but we are told that the restoration process has not continued. Nevertheless, Paul publicly said in Lakeland that there were "false rumors" about him and that he had lived a "chaste life." Both are not true. I've been told by leaders in the revival that Paul won't be invited back. I compliment them for this. I can understand how someone is let on the platform and they shouldn't. But to me, before I attended the first meeting, this was a real caution on their discernment.
When I attended the meeting I was excited to see the level of enthusiasm among those who attended. People waited in lines for hours to get a seat at the civic center in Lakeland, a venue that seats about 7,000. There seemed to be about 6,000 there that night and I was told that at the baseball stadium over the previous weekend there were 12,000. The meetings are broadcasted live on the Internet on the Ignited Church's website, http://www.ignitedchurch.com, and also on GodTV which is also broadcasting the services daily from 7 to 11 p.m. EST.
There was great praise and worship that night for about an hour and 15 minutes. Then there were testimonies, Todd Bentley shared and there was ministry of various types that took place. There was a lot of humility exhibited in the service that I attended. There were also words of knowledge including that there would be an outbreak of revival in Holland, Germany and Ireland. Todd Bentley called for delegations from those countries that had flown over for the revival to come forward. There were about a dozen from each country and they seemed to be mightily touched by God when Todd prayed for them.
Toward the end of the service there were two lines of people who wanted to give testimonies who were called up to the stage using the format that has become familiar with Benny Hinn, where he has the helpers call out the miracles on one side and then on the other. Bentley interviewed the people one by one and then there was a ministry time where they generally fall over under the power of God.
Todd Bentley is from Canada. Most of the people in his ministry team have come down from Canada. Many of them are from the biker culture. While I had never met Todd Bentley nor heard him minister, I was a little surprised to see that he was covered with tattoos-- which is much more acceptable in his generation than in mine.
Nevertheless he ministered with power. When I was asked later on to describe the service I heard myself saying rather extemporaneously that the first part of the service with worship reminded me of the worship at the Brownsville revival and Todd's style of ministry reminded me of a "Benny Hinn with tattoos." A couple people I've said that to have found it rather funny and have also found it a helpful word picture.
It's too early to really tell the long-term effect of this revival. My report today is neither criticism nor an affirmation. I have not had an opportunity to research any of the miracles or even to talk personally with Todd Bentley. Much of what I know has come from Steve Strader (whom I have known a long time and who I trust).
However, the people I saw at the meetings seemed genuinely hungry for a move of God. Like many, I'm also hungry for a move of God and I'm glad to see this outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I'm glad to see the excitement that has been generated-- not only in Lakeland but in various parts of the country.
I'm encouraged by the miracles that have been reported even from those who watch on the Internet or on GodTV. I actually know a few of the people who are reporting healings. Again, I've not been able to research them and I may even report on that later. Today I just wanted to get out a quick report on what I saw and say that I was encouraged rather than discouraged.
I encourage you to check it out for yourself on GodTV or on the Internet and analyze it for yourself but if you can come to Lakeland that's even better. Please CLICK HERE to post your comments below.
The difference between the two revivals is that the Pentecost revival has actually been a "series of revivals" that has happened again and again over the years-- the Latter Rain movement and the healing revivals of the late 40's; Full Gospel business men that started in the 50's, along with ministries emerging such as Kathryn Kuhlman; followed by the Charismatic movement of the 60's in the mainline Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic church. Then there has been the Faith movement, the Apostolic movement, and various revival outbreakings in places like Toronto and Brownsville.
The latest outbreak of revival is apparently in Lakeland, Florida. It started with meetings with Todd Bentley on April 2 at Ignited Church pastored by my long-time friend Steve Strader. I've know Steve since I was in the 9th grade and he was in the 6th grade when his father Karl Strader came to pastor the church my family attended in Lakeland. That was also the church where Rodney Howard Browne's ministry really took off in the United States with extended meetings back in the early 90's.
(This revival with Todd Bentley started about the time that we had a death in the family so I was not able to go down to the services until Monday, May 5-- the 34th continuous day of the revival. By the time I attended, Lee Grady and others had been to the revival and had given their analysis. If you missed Lee's analysis you can CLICK HERE to read it. Before I attended on Monday I was also beginning to get critical emails about the revival, expressing cautions, etc.
As I've covered the move of the Holy Spirit for the last three decades, I know that anytime there is a genuine move of God, it is guaranteed that certain people will automatically oppose it. These people oppose any move of God that is beyond their own religious experience. The sad thing is that some times they will have some valid criticisms that people like me tend to discount because they are so negative.
Some people also question Todd Bentley's past. He has quite a "testimony" that actually was first reported in Charisma several years ago. But there are those who feel that a person who is less than perfect can't really be used by God. Actually I believe that the Bible teaches that "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise" (1 Corinthians 1:27, NIV).
Also, at one of the meetings recently Paul Cain was given a place on the platform. Unfortunately Paul Cain has disqualified himself from ministry due to various sins in his life he has confessed to including drunkenness and homosexuality. Other ministers have worked to restore him, but we are told that the restoration process has not continued. Nevertheless, Paul publicly said in Lakeland that there were "false rumors" about him and that he had lived a "chaste life." Both are not true. I've been told by leaders in the revival that Paul won't be invited back. I compliment them for this. I can understand how someone is let on the platform and they shouldn't. But to me, before I attended the first meeting, this was a real caution on their discernment.
When I attended the meeting I was excited to see the level of enthusiasm among those who attended. People waited in lines for hours to get a seat at the civic center in Lakeland, a venue that seats about 7,000. There seemed to be about 6,000 there that night and I was told that at the baseball stadium over the previous weekend there were 12,000. The meetings are broadcasted live on the Internet on the Ignited Church's website, http://www.ignitedchurch.com, and also on GodTV which is also broadcasting the services daily from 7 to 11 p.m. EST.
There was great praise and worship that night for about an hour and 15 minutes. Then there were testimonies, Todd Bentley shared and there was ministry of various types that took place. There was a lot of humility exhibited in the service that I attended. There were also words of knowledge including that there would be an outbreak of revival in Holland, Germany and Ireland. Todd Bentley called for delegations from those countries that had flown over for the revival to come forward. There were about a dozen from each country and they seemed to be mightily touched by God when Todd prayed for them.
Toward the end of the service there were two lines of people who wanted to give testimonies who were called up to the stage using the format that has become familiar with Benny Hinn, where he has the helpers call out the miracles on one side and then on the other. Bentley interviewed the people one by one and then there was a ministry time where they generally fall over under the power of God.
Todd Bentley is from Canada. Most of the people in his ministry team have come down from Canada. Many of them are from the biker culture. While I had never met Todd Bentley nor heard him minister, I was a little surprised to see that he was covered with tattoos-- which is much more acceptable in his generation than in mine.
Nevertheless he ministered with power. When I was asked later on to describe the service I heard myself saying rather extemporaneously that the first part of the service with worship reminded me of the worship at the Brownsville revival and Todd's style of ministry reminded me of a "Benny Hinn with tattoos." A couple people I've said that to have found it rather funny and have also found it a helpful word picture.
It's too early to really tell the long-term effect of this revival. My report today is neither criticism nor an affirmation. I have not had an opportunity to research any of the miracles or even to talk personally with Todd Bentley. Much of what I know has come from Steve Strader (whom I have known a long time and who I trust).
However, the people I saw at the meetings seemed genuinely hungry for a move of God. Like many, I'm also hungry for a move of God and I'm glad to see this outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I'm glad to see the excitement that has been generated-- not only in Lakeland but in various parts of the country.
I'm encouraged by the miracles that have been reported even from those who watch on the Internet or on GodTV. I actually know a few of the people who are reporting healings. Again, I've not been able to research them and I may even report on that later. Today I just wanted to get out a quick report on what I saw and say that I was encouraged rather than discouraged.
I encourage you to check it out for yourself on GodTV or on the Internet and analyze it for yourself but if you can come to Lakeland that's even better. Please CLICK HERE to post your comments below.
38 Comments:
At May 7, 2008 7:03 PM ,
famechaser said...
Todd is a conduit being used by God. This revival is REAL. A caution to people who criticize Todd too quickly. Jesus said "You will know them by their fruit" not their culture, tattoos, or yelling 'BAM!' when they pray for someone.
God, please keep offending our minds and changing our hearts - we need it!
At May 7, 2008 8:23 PM ,
daddysheart said...
I'm very amazed that you so vigilantly hold on to what you came to believe. Had John Wimber been alive during the days of that time of Paul Cain's life, NONE of the parties would have had the guts to confront it. John would never have let it happen. The facts are far different than what were written by those who stepped into the judges chair- and soon that will be done. God's heart is always for restoration-something that is a formidable task to all those who have enjoyed staying out of the light of false accusations but remain true to defile others through their press. I am not impressed. I for one minute DO NOT BELIEVE that Todd Bentley wouldn't have Paul Cain back in Lakeland. Your statement is erroneous. Only some of the "local" leadership of the "house" in Lakeland would fall in line with the Charisma agenda to continue to defile Paul long after he is gone (as was so directly declared by your editor). You should be ashamed for not having the guts to restore what you you have had the audacity to vilify through your press. I think you would find the "confession" wavering significantly in the breeze of truth. It was written by another. It was intended to ruin. It did so, and you jumped on the band wagon. Soon you will be handed something far more truthful, far more vindicating, and very purposeful in the restoration heart of the Father God. I hope Charisma steps out to become truly representative of those who love Jesus, love restoration, and seek to exonerate those who have been so wickedly damaged. I know of many who have been through the mill of yellow journalism put out by your magazine. Indeed, some of them have found themselves on both sides of your press. I wonder if the Father is happy with you showing off your naked brother to the world, particularly when he truly was falsely accused.
At May 7, 2008 8:33 PM ,
daddysheart said...
-incidentally, your God is very small. Very small. I am amazed that you can disqualify someone from ministry when the Father didn't. The ones whom He gave as examples to follow were murderers, tax-collectors, adulterers, persecutors- who knows maybe one of them was even a magazine editor? God is much bigger than that. I would encourage you to read a book called The Shack, and another called "Love, Acceptance & Forgiveness" (one of Wimbers' favorites). Maybe you will see the God who loves not only you, but all those who are His children. Maybe you will realize as a brother how heinous it is to disparage and discourage your brother.
At May 7, 2008 8:39 PM ,
rhz said...
Anyone that expresses concern or caution seems to get nailed by those that support what is happening in Lakeland.
I have been a proponent of revival for years and have embraced many things that others refused to accept. Having said that, I will only convey that my concern has less to do with tattoos or yelling "bam" as it has to do with practices that are unbiblical, some which border or reflect mysticsim and New Age, and strong links to individuals of the past that have been linked to teaching heresy.
Offense of the mind is fine; but offending truth...no way.
At May 7, 2008 9:19 PM ,
Mama J said...
Thank you for your transparency in your comments...it is so needed in the body of Christ...blessings
At May 7, 2008 10:47 PM ,
Dan-o said...
I am both rejoicing and concerned at the same time about the Lakeland Outpouring. I am rejoicing that many hungry people are being touched by the presence of God as they worship Him. It is always the heart of God to touch those who diligently seek him.
However, I have concerns. I want to give Todd the benefit of a doubt. I think Todd is a dedicated, sincere man of God who simply needs someone to lovingly fine tune him. In his exuberance, Todd has a tendency to look like he is pushing people while they are going down. (See Video 05/01)This appearance serves to bring discredit and unnecessary criticism. I'm sure if this is pointed out, Todd would receive the correction gracefully and resort to using his fingertips in a light manner like Benny Hinn has done before. Todd has a tender heart and doesn't want the devil to use this as a hindrance to anyone.
Todd is also very excited...Who wouldn't be? Still, he would be well-advised to tone down the promotional rhetoric. It can potentially come across as self-serving. If promotion is needed, use an announcer. Also, it might behoove Todd to refrain from publicly talking about his private angelic visitations. Do we really need to know that Todd saw an angel who told him such and such? It can come across as sensationalism. Why not just say, "I believe that the Lord is telling me such and such...That's what I do. I want to do everything I can to ensure that any person at any level can receive what is being said. Privately, I can tell my pastor and my peers that I saw an angel, but publicly it's better to refrain from all the details. Todd has such a compassion for people that I believe he would gladly receive such instruction.
Todd is a humble man and needs someone to advise him of these things and more. Someone needed to warn him about Paul Cain. Whoever set that up for Todd made an unwise or rash decision. If someone close to him doesn't step up and advise him, things could become more difficult for him. He needs and wants wise counsel. Steve, please help him.
At May 8, 2008 12:39 AM ,
Todd Nelson said...
Lakeland is my parents' home town (from 1936 onward). I grew up in Sarasota and am now a missionary pastor in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (SE Asia). Our daughter just finished her first year at Southeastern University in Lakeland. I'm watching with keen interest what's happening in Lakeland.
I grew up a Baptist and have two degrees from a Baptist seminary, but am now more in line with Vineyard theology and practices. I pray for Todd and the leaders there that they stay lashed to the cross and to the Word, while allowing the Holy Spirit to lead.
As a student of revivals and spiritual awakenings, I can say with confidence: the longest lasting ones have given the Word a prominent place and the Spirit room to move. Humility amongst the leaders is also a key component.
Holy Spirit, please move mightily to awaken your people and draw the lost to Jesus, to the pleasure and glory of the Father.
At May 8, 2008 3:36 AM ,
BigLou747 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
At May 8, 2008 3:38 AM ,
BigLou747 said...
Like Steve, I went with caution and found the outpouring to be incredibly encouraging. I had several life changing epiphanies that I am blogging about while I decompress. You can read them at www.louieweber.com
At May 8, 2008 6:01 AM ,
mamreres said...
Thanks toSteve for comemnting in a situation that many are trying to avoid.
I have been involved in the supernatural for 50 of my 70 years and still am.I love and work with young people, tatoos and all. I was responsible for leading a whole group of churche in the Toronto Renewal .
All this to say that I am not a "soured" person.
My soncerns are not the demonstation or the style, but rather the source of so much of Todds spoken word and teaching. His affirmation of angelic source for his revelation and his insistance in his writing from his webpage that his own visitation with angels is a common experience.
Jesus said "when He the spirit of truth is come he will lead you into truth"
Supernatural that claims angelic sources got us all into trouble with Joseph Smith and sadly with William Branham.
We desparately need a revival and there is hunger all around the world for one, as I find in my travels in the nations.
Deaparate as we are we cannot start out again on the experience of the Supernatural without the clear confines and roadmap of the Word of God.
I am saddened that Paul Cain, also still unrepentant should be quoted by Todd and on his website, when the mans credibility is still in question.
Lets have Revival, God uses imperfect men, but lets ensure the man driving the car has the right road map!
At May 8, 2008 7:54 AM ,
aprilmay said...
What I hear about these revivals concerns me. Healings, words of knowledge, praise and worship... what about SALVATION. What does it profit a man if he gains the world... riches, health, healing, words of knowledge, but looses his own soul? Is anyone preaching the saving gospel of Jesus Christ?
At May 8, 2008 2:00 PM ,
famechaser said...
Yes Aprilmay, people are getting saved. Good question -
I'm buddies with Todd's ministry team in Vancouver - LOTS of cool salvations, which is the greatest miracle.
Listen to ibethel.org last week's podcast. Youth that were at Lakeland are preaching boldness in random parking lots in Jesus name.
It's only a revival if the unsaved/community are affected - right?
At May 8, 2008 3:04 PM ,
oneofHiskids said...
Personally, I have not been to Lakeland and I do believe being there has a better influence than watching it on God TV.
I do believe there is a genuine anointing of God on the revival meetings. That said, one does not need to take off their thinking cap out of fear they might offend God. Let me also add that I personally could care less about the tattoos.
I have noticed that some of the teachings and statements are standard word faith and not necessarily all inspired. And to be truthful, I have struggled with some of the prophecies that have been proclaimed there. Quite a few seem very self serving and the last time I checked scripture, it was all right with God to test the Spirits to make sure we are receiving from God in the first place.
I truly do not know about some of the miracles. Only time and doctors verifications will settle those claims. I confess that it has been a little easy to doubt some of them, but that is from sitting in front of my TV and not from attendance or knowing the people involved.
For those who are against such movements for whatever reason, there is probably enough happening to justify their opposition and those who are wide open there is enough happening to justify there position.
Whatever the side, it is right to recognize that harsh accusations such as "That is not God", or on the other side "to say anything against it is to be against God" are more then likely not in step with the Holy Spirit!
It is probably good to not cling on every word and miracle as if they were all straight from the throne.
BTW - As for Paul Cain, put me in the camp that states he should not have been on the platform. He has shunned restoration, accountability and correction amongst his fellow ministers and should not be allowed up there. To believe he is is innocent of the sins he has been held accountable of is at best gullible.
Daddysheart - The people who were trying to hold Cain accountable are all ministers who love him and were trying to help him. I believe one of those who was holding him accountable was his former Kansas City pastor Mike Bickle along Rick Joyner.
I have trouble thinking they would have taken the steps they took concerning Cain lightly or with reckless false accusations.
One of the problems that arises in Charismatic revivals is that the authority of Scripture, correct teaching and a Godly lifestyle can become less important in face of the desire for and justification of present experience.
***Mamreres and rhz - well said!
At May 8, 2008 4:34 PM ,
hindsfeet said...
I am hoping that someone will take the time to investigate and document the reports of miraculous healings. So often I hear of someone going to a "revival" and being "out under the power" and yet nothing in their life is changed afterward. I so desperately would like a book of documented healings, documented by doctor reports before and after. I believe our God is mighty to save and mighty to heal. But my own family is in great need of a mirculous healing from paralysis. We have chased healing here and there and obtained only deferred hope. I cry out to know the truth. Is God on the move? Or is it more excited hysterical people just having a good time? I don't mean to sound bitter. I just want to see the hand of God, mighty to save, mighty to heal and know that it is real.
At May 8, 2008 5:54 PM ,
Pearl said...
Praise God for Todd Bentley! The angelic visitations at Lakeland are real and legit! Todd stands on firm biblical ground concerning his claims of receiving daily instruction from angels and visiting the heavenly realm on a regular basis. The scriptures are very clear that angels are now used to give us direction in these New Testament times. Angels directed Joseph, Mary’s wife on several occasions (Mt. 1:20-24, Mt. 2:13, Mt. 2:19, It was an angel that announced the Resurrection to the women Mt. 28:5-6. Angels instructed Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist (Lk 1:13-19) It was the angels who instructed Mary concerning the birth and plan for Jesus. (Lk 1:28-38) The angels instructed and guided the Shepherds to Jesus (Lk 2: 9-21) Angels strengthened Jesus in the Garden (Lk 22:43) An angel guided Phillip (Acts 8:26) Cornelius was instructed/guided by an Angel (Acts 10:3-7) Peter was delivered and instructed by an Angel (Acts 12:7-10) Sadducees were the ones who didn’t believe in Angelic Instruction (Acts 23:8)
God is the same as he was in the Book of Acts. They received instruction from Angels throughout the book. Why are we surprised that Todd receives angelic instruction on a daily basis? Why are we surprised that Todd visits the heavenly realm on a regular basis? IT’S IN THE SCRIPTURE. Todd says that we can go to the heavenly realm on a regular basis and I believe him because his teaching is based on Scripture. Todd receives from an angel named Healing Revival and Emma among others. http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html (to receive all of Todd's teaching, simply google "Todd Bentley" "Angelic Host")It is also the reason why his meetings are successful. My small prayer group has been watching the Lakeland Outpouring nightly. Our hearts cried out for the presence of God and this anointing. We began to read and watch the teachings of Todd Bentley and Bob Jones. We applied them, and now our prayer group is seeing and receiving instruction from the Angels also! IT’S REAL! WE ALL SEE THE SAME ANGEL AND HE IS NOW GIVING US GUIDANCE LIKE IN THE BOOK OF ACTS! We have heard the Angel speaking to us to sell and leave all and bring this revival to the Indian Reservations in Arizona. The Angel told us they were ripe for these types of Godly experiences. Pray for us and the Native American Nations. It’s Biblical! Jump in! Don’t be afraid to experience the Angelic Realm. If Peter had relied on reasoning, he would have never stepped out of the boat to walk on water. Let go and trust God! Todd is a man of God! Just look at the miracles (Jn 3:2 For no man can do theses miracles that you do, except that God is with him). Go Church Go!
At May 9, 2008 2:08 PM ,
InTheWord said...
I am not opposed to people who look different than I who are on fire for Jesus. I have a son who was in the drug culture for years and know that even though he is now serving Jesus he still "marches to the beat of a different drummer." My caution begins when focus is on manifestations and angels instead God. When talking about angels takes up more time than talking about the power of the blood of the Lamb then there is cause for concern. I have to say I am still researching but here is what I think the bottom line should be: I am to look to God, not a revival or leader, read The Word and ask God to show Himself real to ME and not depend on what others are experiencing. Just because we're cautious does not mean our God is small. The Bible teaches us to test what we hear and see against the Word for the one who does not is deemed as foolish. God's words, not mine. Revival starts in the individual heart. I'm not judging anyone - that's God's job to know the heart. I just think as Christians we need to be careful that we aren't moving with just any wind and keep our feet planted in the Word. Then when these sort of events come up we can see if it is in COMPLETE alignment and then say, "Praise God! Revive your people again."
At May 9, 2008 5:02 PM ,
pruned said...
I appreciate the information about any outpouring of God's presence and activity. I am impressed when a revival lasts weeks and weeks. So, thank you for reporting your observations about God's activity in Lakeland, Florida.
I haven't yet seen a report from Strang Communications on the Jena, Louisiana Revival - a revival clearly of reconciliation -- between man and God, between races where just a short while ago they were known for the Jena 6. For more information, go to www.lbc.org/jena.
At May 9, 2008 11:49 PM ,
April said...
Why do people think we need this "style" as a revival? In our church we are there faithfully every Sunday, learning the Word, worshipping, bringing the lost in, praying for the sick, doing the will and work of the Father. It's the consistent, faithful, daily following of Christ. I don't need to fly down there to get a thrill and a chill. Read the comments on the Charisma Forums. I don't think Mr. Strang reads them. He could learn a lot from those posts, pro and con.
At May 11, 2008 7:18 AM ,
josiahinperu said...
Perhaps we should throw out the book of Revelations since much of it was written from encounters with angels?
At May 11, 2008 8:42 AM ,
lions said...
I will begin by saying that I am no stranger to this kind of outpouring. My wife and I attended many meetings in Canada during the height of the Toronto outpouring years and our lives were and continue to be deeply impacted by those events.
Having said that, it was with a deep sigh of relief that I read Stephen Strang's report on the Florida outpouring. Many of us who witness these things but have a twinge of uncertainty or some degree of unsettledness at what we see -- agonize internally over whether or not we are doubting something that may in fact be a genuine move of God.
My wife and I have attnded several of the meetings - some at Ignited Church, and once in Auburndale, and we can testify first-hand that there is a powerful anointing present in these meetings. Yet there remains a lingering concern as to whether or not this "outpouring" is all that it is said to be.
I was absolutely grieved in my spirit to see Paul Cain given a platform at these meetings. Anyone with a computer and basic search skills can easily verify Paul's involvement in sinful practices, verified by credible sources, as well as his unwillingness to submit to legitimate restoration practices. While it is true that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, and Paul may very well continue to operate in his prophetic gifting, he cannot be allowed to engage in ungodliness and simultaneously be given a Christian platform.
I am not privy to what goes on behind the scenes at these meetings, so I cannot say whether or not the "outpouring" leadership recognizes that having Paul on the platform was a mistake. But time will tell.
I cannot shake the unsettled discomfort that I feel about these meetings. And I cannot put a finger on why I feel that way, but over the years as a Christian, I have learned to trust that "still small voice," even when I don't fully understand the reasons.
Last night (5/9)I watched about 2 hrs so of the meeting and it seemed that all Todd was doing was screaming for an hour, and many of his comments seemed extremely defensive toward some of the obviously critical comments he has received. Finally, I just turned it off.
I will continue to reserve judgment and allow God to speak to me in my own heart about what is going on here. I believe that we are to test the spirits in these things, and not jump on the bandwagon just because thousands of people are doing so. Much of the church has lost the ability to think for themselves - i.e., to allow God to speak to them personally, rather than numbingly rely on the opinions of others simply because they are large in number.
In the meantime, thank you Stephen, for expressing what I think many of us are feeling right now. We desperately want to believe that God is on the move here, yet at the same time we want to be circumspect about what we are seeing. I thought your report was a fairly objective and legimitate observation.
At May 14, 2008 1:50 PM ,
Julie said...
Wednesday, May 14, 2008
Dear Steve,
Thanks you for your measured and thoughtful response to the healing outpouring in Lakeland. Like you, we have been encouraged by some of what we've seen while other things have concerned us. We've already seen so many people jumping on the bandwagon already, enthusiastically endorsing it with little or no reserve. Some insinuate that any kind of questions or admonishment to discern and display caution is 'criticism' or even 'persecution' of the work of God in our midst. I've seen this reaction so often that I'd like to express some thoughts I've been considering with regard to this situation.
Every 'revival', 'awakening', or 'outpouring' - however we choose to express it - usually has some kind of opposition or criticism that arises against it. However, sometimes the criticism or resistance is not for criticism's or resistance' sake alone, nor is it due to a religious spirit persecuting the move of God, but rather could actually be a genuine concern and attempt to discern the nature and growth of the revival in a mature, responsible and Scriptural way. If it is truly of God, it certainly can stand the test of scrutiny, can it not?
The Scripture firmly admonishes us to 'test the spirits' and to search the Scriptures as did the 'noble Bereans', who were commended by God for their diligence to examine the Scriptures for themselves "to see whether these things be true": "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (Acts 17:11)
Unfortunately, history teaches us that great awakenings have died out not only due to opposition or persecution, but also because some person or group hijacked the move from within to wrest control of it from the Holy Spirit, to 'own' it or profit from it in some way. Sometimes it was due to the lack of transparent relationships and accountability on the part of the movement's leaders with other mature leaders in the Body of Christ. Other times it was been due to truly alarming, weird or even demonic practices that have arisen that do not reconcile easily with the stability, soberness and soundness of the faith as presented in Scripture.
It's tempting to cry 'persecution' or 'criticism', and resent or judge people who are honestly questioning things and not actually try to give ear to what they are expressing. My husband and I are Spirit-filled believers, we are very familiar with the Spirit's gifts, worship, the prophetic, anointings, etc. but we've seen enough abuses and mixture to not accept anymore whatever is trumpeted as the latest, greatest 'wave'.
Sometimes the mixture was simply immaturity and we longed for mature leaders to address and shepherd it (not control or dominate.) Other times, the admixture was truly unscriptural or demonic and we were grieved when it was NOT addressed but rather ignored or glossed over.
As a result, some were harmed who perhaps were younger Christians who only needed help to discern properly, and the movement was needlessly discredited and its benefits nullified -- and might not have been if only the concerns had been addressed and humbly dealt with. Some of the revivals were destroyed for those very reasons....not due to criticism and religious opposition, but because of mixture, selfish ambition, creeping error, or simply a lack of sound leadership, teachableness and maturity.
We've read many pros and cons about this revival. We've watched online ourselves (though admittedly not every night.) We've talked to people in our own church fellowship who are totally sold on what's going on; some haven't even heard of it yet. We've checked out voices of opposition on the internet: some are what we call 'heresy hunters', which we detest because of a truly hyper-critical, disrespectful, sarcastic, religious spirit. Others have real maturity and love and seem to be expressing honest concerns.
We've seen some of the interviews with Todd Bentley the media has done; one video interview from the Tampa Tribune was reassuring because of Todd's transparent and genuine demeanor. We've read Todd's website and the article "How We Began", which details his journey of growth and call into healing ministry. I could care less if he has tattoos and piercings.
We've also read things about some of the teachings both he and Bob Jones have expressed in the past, which if true, are very concerning, things like the angel "Emma" that supposedly attends Todd's ministry, or the Hindu spirit that allegedly gave a revelation to Jones some years ago. We know what the Word says about angels, that they are ministering spirits and flames of fire who minister to the heirs of salvation and we agree there will likely be increased activity and recognition of angels as the endtimes progress.
We're uncomfortable with some aspects of Bentley's and Jones' statements which seem to express a relationship with these angels and spirits rather than with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who command angels to serve us. There are also aspects of Bob Jones' background and statements that are of concern (and I have always respected this man as a prophetic voice to the Body of Christ.)
We look for fruit, we don't judge hearts. We look for true preaching of the Word and calls for genuine repentance and authentic salvation, with attending growth and fruit. We look for documented healings. We look not just for signs and wonders but also know the Word says those things should FOLLOW the preaching of the Word, not substitute for it. We have observed some preaching in this revival, but not alot from the Word. (We could be mistaken, though - as we said, we have not watched every night.)
I say all this because with the speed this movement has spread, the potential is great for error and misstatements as well as extreme practices that are un-Scriptural. I confess, sometimes I get irritated with the 'style' of how these things are handled on stage.... people barely get one or two sentences out in giving their testimony of healing and Todd is giving them the "Bam!" on the head and they seem expected to drop over. I don't like that, it seems theatrical and automatic and somewhat disrespectful to those who made the effort to come up and share their excitement and joy.
I would love to see Todd grow in this area of care and respect for other believers. I know they have alot of people whose testimonies they want to fit in during the service but I don't see the need to trade off respect and gentleness for cramming in as many people as possible. And frankly, I would rather be the 'last person standing' and remain sober and alert to discern (someone has to), than rush to join a line wherever people are falling.
We've also been very concerned with this idea of a 'transferable anointing." I don't dispute that anointings are indeed transferable; however, to invite and welcome an anointing to transfer to you through the laying on of hands or some other method without stopping to see if the Holy Spirit would have you receive it lacks discernment and responsibility.
This kind of willy-nilly spiritual activity can be dangerous and those who practice it should be more careful. The potential for deception or perversion in the transference of a spiritual anointing is very great. It bothers me that it's treated almost as a wholesale spiritual commodity; again, shouldn't we ask the Holy Spirit and get His peace first and the green light to receive an anointing or 'mantle' rather than just welcoming this activity without any caution or discernment whatsoever?
There have even been reports of some who have manifested demonic oppression after receiving this 'transferable' anointing and have only received relief from the attack after repentance and commanding the spirit to leave. What are we to conclude from this? That all who've had this happen are deceived or are resisting the Spirit of God? Or could there be something to these reports we should pay serious attention to?
Should we not rather slow down and seek the Lord as to whether this is wisdom? Why must we swallow everything in our headlong rush to get in on this supposed next great wave of God, or risk criticism and accusations of resisting the Spirit of God if we dare question any of it?
What we have longed for as we've considered the pros and cons of this whole issue is for the leaders who oversee and have a transparent relationship with Todd Bentley - and Todd himself - to perhaps enter into dialogue (i.e. perhaps a round table-style discussion and prayer?) that might allay the fears and criticisms of some who observe things that are troubling. Not to give heed to every 'out-there' heresy hunter, but to consult with respected leaders.
When Jesus Himself operated in healing and deliverance, He had crowds and crowds of people of every level of immaturity, flesh, or stage of growth. It probably DID take on the character of a circus (much to His dismay.) There's only so much a person can control with that many excited people around, I suppose. We haven't many clues how He handled that. On the one hand, Jesus said, 'If you do not believe Me (i.e."what I say about Myself"), believe My works." On the other hand, He criticized those who demanded a sign or sought Him only for His miracles.
So what could it hurt to slow down and give opportunity for this revival to mature and find stable footing so that if it all is from God, it can survive and thrive, and that which might be mixture can be dealt with and purified? Why does it have to be all or nothing?
There must be some way to invite discussion and prayer in a spirit of humility, love and unity with those who are expressing concern. We are so tired of all the childish hysteria and 'playing' with these kinds of things, when simply putting some kind of sober, careful respect around a move of God like this might help it endure rather than degenerate and spin out of control, or worse, deteriorate and die.
I know this is difficult, to spend time talking and praying and discerning. But frankly, we have been very grieved in the past with this seizing onto the more wild and unrestrained aspects of even an authentic revival, to the point of it becoming a circus, and thereby seeing the faith of some shipwrecked, or at the very least, distracted or hindered.
It is distressing to see, once again, the division of the Body of Christ over these things. We read one thing and then another and if we who are mature Christians are confused and disheartened with the statements flying back and forth, pro and con, imagine the young believer's or unsaved person's confusion.
As leaders in the Body of Christ, at whatever level whether nationally or locally, we need to consider how we might carefully discern this movement of God, and how the leaders might responsibly shepherd it according to sound Scriptural principles so it can be a pure and unadulterated work of the Spirit of God's power and love in the earth in these last days, which we desperately need.
As the darkness around us increases, and the opposition from the enemy intensifies, it is mature love and commitment to the truth and to each other that will protect us from deception. It is not only the Spirit's POWER we need, but the greatest protection of all: love.
Blessings as you continue on!
Lovingly,
David and Julie Eickenroth
Traverse City, MI
At May 15, 2008 10:32 AM ,
Tom Winfield said...
Your description of Todd Bentley as "Benny Hinn with tattoos" was incredibly funny and helpful. I am very familiar with Hinn. Indeed, God uses the foolish things of the world, because He loves to. So why not Todd Bentley and all his tattoos? Evidently, because his helpers come down from Canada are bikers, I would assume Todd is a biker, too. Personally, I hate tattoos and I would like to hear Todd tell young people not to make that mistake. The OT forbids it. Sorry about the Paul Cain episode, and the angel Emma episode, too, though you didn't mention her. But what Holy Ghost revival in the USA has ever been without strange manifestations, and the opposing works of the flesh and the devil? I pray the leaders of this revival, including your friend Pastor Strader, will not be suckered into allowing some really bad stuff--contributing to an early demise of this outpouring. At my church, Calvary Assembly of Winter Park, FL, we are praying for an outpouring, too. John and Carol Arnott of Toronto fame now come monthly to bring The Father's Love in supernatural power. For dates and times, go to www.calvaryorlando.org. Here's to revival bonfires breaking out all across our nation. Have we ever needed it more? Come Holy Spirit.
At May 15, 2008 11:21 AM ,
Tom Winfield said...
This is for Julie and David Eickenroth: I read your post carefully, studiously. I agree with the cry of your heart for discernment that will guide this outpouring in Lakeland. How do we get it? What pastor is so familiar with the workings of the Holy Spirit, the power of the Spirit that causes people to manifest it in so many ways, they can act like a baseball umpire and shout--"Stop that! You're out of here!" Too much human oversight will kill the flow of the Spirit. The outpouring in Lakeland explodes every night. Who has the courage to stand and overrule it? Who wants to stop it, until we can figure out what to allow and what not to allow? Unhappily, the very nature of Holy Spirit revivals is that it draws opposing forces--from the flesh, and from the devil. Both act as polluting powers. So you are not going to get 100% Holy Spirit, but that mix you spoke of. I believe the Lord knew exactly how Todd Bentley would react, and how he would conduct himself, before the Holy Spirit began to manifest in power. At some point, we have to start trusting the Lord in these things. We have to decide that He really does know what He is doing; and that "poor God" is not being outflanked by the flesh and the devil in this. Even so, I agree with your heart for discernment and correction. But I learned a long time ago that the flesh and the devil come to church every Sunday morning. I was shocked by that, but it is true. So what do we do? Express our concerns, like you have, and pray for the Holy Spirit to bring correction where it is needed, even to His servant Todd Bentley. We can also outlaw certain manifestations that only hurt the outpouring by bringing sharp division--barking like a dog, roaring like a lion, clucking like a chicken (things that happened during other outpourings). But really, how to police an outpouring of the Holy Spirit is a difficult matter. That is why leaders back off and say, "I am not going to throw water on this. We've wanted the Holy Spirit to come, and He is here. I am going to leave it alone." The underlying fear is that we will kill the outpouring, and it is a valid one. Yet, to give carte blanch to whatever happens seems off-track, too. I think at some point the leaders in the revival have to say--"My spirit just has a problem with that..." Then they have to dicern if it is their spirit or their soulish nature--unfamiliar with what is happening--talking to them. My prayer--Holy Spirit, give us all a hand with this, especially the leaders in this outpouring. Protect us all from things that are not from You. But give us the courage to let You come to us in Your own way--even if we are not familiar with it. amen.
At May 15, 2008 1:48 PM ,
truthwill said...
One another thing to notice: Angels have never appeared as women in the Bible and they never will unless they are from the demonic realm. They have always appeared in the Bible as men and not even children either!
I believe it is time to add some messages (in Charisma) on repentance, hell, denying yourself, turning away from the lust of the world , living a holy life, living a self-controlled, disciplined life in Christ by the power of the Spirit!
There are many so called positive messages especially from "Charismatic" preachers that are devoid of real biblical substance. As a result, these preachers and their followers are cheapening the gifts of the Spirit and making them of no use by the evangelical crowd.We in the Charismatic movement must give a firm biblical foundation for what we preach. Then the evangelical crowd will come and experience the blessed Holy Spirit!
Thanks for reading
Koshy Thomas
403-508-2884
serve@godcares.com
All Nations Church of Jesus, Canada
At May 15, 2008 3:23 PM ,
Julie said...
Reply to Tom Winfield:
I so appreciate your kind, thoughtful and straightforward response. This is exactly the kind of loving and respectful dialogue I long for in the Body of Christ.
I agree with everything you said. I have NO desire for men to overrule or police the Spirit of God or His workings. Been there, done that, got the coffee mug, you know? :)
What I believe the Word of God teaches in a million different ways is that we must do EVERYTHING in the context of relationship. When we try to make a formula out of everything - including making 'guidelines' or rules or whathaveyou to control something that can easily get out of control - then we never have to 1) rely on the Spirit of God moment by moment, 2) diligently search the Scriptures, and 3) be in constant communication and relationship with each other.
I don't really have much fear of flesh nor the devil anymore, nor of soulishness. After years of healing, I finally realized that dealing with both the flesh and the devil is simply a matter of growth. I decided no devil in hell is going to determine MY relationship with Jesus, and as for the flesh or the soul, well, what I said - GROWTH!
I have an intense passion to see growth and maturity in God's people. People grow best in an atmosphere of safety, love and acceptance. The Holy Spirit once spoke clearly to me as my husband and I were about to embark on an ministry which taught people how to flow in the Spirit in their gifts and in worship: "It's not your job to correct everything wrong you see in My people."
We learned through that ministry that when we provided confident but gentle, loving leadership in a safe, encouraging atmosphere, alot of what could be perceived as 'mistakes' in immature people just fell off them as they learned. It was a joy to watch. We were ready to correct; often we didn't have to because the Holy Spirit got to them first! We had fun. We had a sense of humor as we all practiced flowing in the Spirit. However, we WERE ready to correct if necessary. And we did have to a few times (one time very seriously.)
What I don't like, however, is the sort of magical thinking that many Christians constantly resort to, whether through word/faith teachings (the more extreme end of it), or thinking everything is going to come to them by the impartation of some anointing or instantaneous healing. Consequently they never learn the tools to manage their emotions, overcome their addictions, or navigate difficult relationships, much less find their place in the body of Christ and begin to live out their destiny in God.
I say, the glory is in the growth! EVERYTHING about God is geared toward growth. Everything about US is BUILT for growth. It's a beautiful thing to see people grow and change and become transformed by the grace of the Cross, the rich truth of the Word, the mighty, enabling power of the Holy Spirit and the authentic love of the Body; to take responsibility for their lives and become honest and purposeful about growing up into the head, Who is Christ Jesus. What a joy to behold when that happens.
Think about it: Jesus healed everyone He touched. His secret was that He only did what He saw the Father doing and only spoke what He heard the Father saying. Everyone He healed was someone He and the Father agreed would be healed that day. What I ask myself is, what happened to the people who got healed by Jesus AFTERWARD? Did they go on to grow and follow Him with their whole hearts? Were some of them in the crowd screaming, "Crucify Him!"? Did some, like Peter, betray Him and afterward return in repentance to Him, maybe even were martyred for His Name sake? I'll tell you one thing: even those who got healed died eventually. My question is: what did they LEARN from their healing or their time with Jesus?
So I care about Todd Bentley. ALOT. I care about his ministry, his call, his team members, and the people who are impacted by his ministry. I care about the rest of us looking on, trying to discern and sort this out. We are NEVER excused from the responsibility to discern - even as we allow for mistakes while we learn. Do we slap a toddler down when they take their first faltering steps? Of course not, but neither do we expect that he will stumble around and fall down forever, but eventually will learn to walk confidently.
I care about people loving the truth and speaking the truth in love. I care about leadership that has enough courage and integrity to confront, dialogue, admonish, warn, and discipline if necessary, not because we need to police a revival but because if we are not careful, people who are precious to God could get hurt, and those who don't even know Him yet could be turned away from Him.
When leaders back off their responsibility to discern and challenge things in a revival such as this, it's because they have given up on relationship. I hope they don't give up on Todd. My hope is that Todd will heed the voices of concern and will submit himself to the process of growth. From what I've heard of him, he is a sweet, teachable, godly man. I hope someone really loves him enough to help him grow. If we don't give up, this revival might actually have a chance to mature into something truly stupendous. Then we'd REALLY have something!
I absolutely DO trust the Lord for this stuff. Absolutely! He is LORD over His church, FATHER to this family, HEAD over this body, and HUSBAND to His beautiful Bride. He WILL have a pure and holy bride and she WILL be mature and full of love, truth and glory. Of this I am confident and it gives me great joy to think of it.
All of this MUST happen in the context of transparent, committed relationship. I care about relationship because even more than the power and anointing and healings, it is LOVE that will get us to the finish line in these final days before we go Home.
Thanks again, Tom, for sharing your wonderful insights.
~ j.
At May 16, 2008 1:23 AM ,
truthwill said...
RE:Todd Bentley
I was at his meeting before. I was troubled by his emphasis on angels.
Lee Grady has noted:1. Beware of strange fire.The name of Jesus is being lifted up in the Lakeland revival, and three people came to the altar for salvation the night I attended. Larger numbers have come to the front of the auditorium to find Christ every night since then.
Yet I fear another message is also being preached subtly in Lakeland—a message that cult-watchers would describe as a spiritual counterfeit. Bentley is one of several charismatic ministers who have emphasized angels in the last several years. He has taught about angels who bring financial breakthroughs or revelations, and he sometimes refers to an angel named Emma who supposedly played a role in initiating a prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. Bentley describes Emma as a woman in a flowing white dress who floats a few feet off the floor.
Make sure you compare what Todd says with the Word of God.
Koshy Thomas
At May 20, 2008 10:15 PM ,
igotthejoy said...
Regarding 'female' angels:
Zech 5:9
9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
NKJV
I used to believe that there were no 'female' angels in the Bible, until someone pointed this verse out to me. Women with wings of a stork - sounds like 'angel' to me.
I've watched the meetings on the internet for a couple weeks now, every night. I attended the 2 meetings at the stadium. I can honestly say I've never felt the presence of the Lord as strong as I felt there, and there was a definite level of 'Faith' that I'd never before experienced.
People get upset with the use of terms like 'portal', or angelic visitations. What exactly are the 'windows of heaven', if not a 'portal'? And if you don't like people talking to or seeing angels, there's a lot of the Bible to rip out. They didn't cease to exist when Revelation was written.
Todd Bentley is an evangelist, and he has an altar call for salvation pretty much every meeting, and now they are going to be 'training' teams go out.
He's not the most 'educated' person, He's just crazy enough to simply believe, and made himself available. Like a child.
Personally, I don't like the tatoos. I'd love to see God 'heal' him and have them just 'disappear'. But then I'd be lifted up in pride with an 'I told you so' attitude.
Happy with church the way it is? Don't change. Avoid the controversy.
Avoid the supernatural. While not every person who gets prayed for receives a miracle, there have been enough that I'm convinced...something's happening. And mistakes are going to be made. But at some point, we're going to have to stop arguing about all the 'little' issues we have about this person or that, this doctrine or that one, and realize it's all about Jesus, him crucified, his resurrection and his return. And when He does return, He will straighten it all out.
At May 22, 2008 4:26 PM ,
truthwill said...
I do not any problems with visions, dreams, or the gifts of the Spirit for I myself had one visitation from the Lord Jesus. You are saying that there are female angels, but I want to assert that no holy angels from the true God ever appeared in the form of a woman in the Bible. The women you are referring to from Zech are evil angels. Please free to read the whole chapter or the whole book.
At May 23, 2008 9:01 PM ,
RealityCheck said...
It's common sense folks. In almost every church, it is taught in training for ministry times that a man should minister to a man, and a woman should minister to a woman. Right? Of course. And we've all seen numerous disasters from breaking that code which resulted in failed relationships due to people falling into sexual sin. The enemy knows how to use a person's moment of weakness or their pride, especially for someone needing ministry and hurting, or one giving out ministry and tending to their own pride as a giver and fixer.
Yet, this Todd guy has regular visitations and conversations with a "woman" spirit, which he claims is an angel(maybe a fallen angel!). Does that sound like God? Would the Lord send a woman spirit to visit a man regularly? Have we totally lost our discernment? Are we so blind?
And for all the brothers who will often say that God can do anything, well that's not really true. God cannot lie. So there's one thing He cannot do. The Scripture tells us that "God is not a man, that he should lie". He may be all powerful and omnipotent, but he will not violate the integrity of His personal being, otherwise all that He has said can be called into question. The Lord does not act like a crazy man, or draw attention to Himself.
Todd is the epitome of a prideful man. He is not humble. Yes, he can exhibit a well rehearsed false humility at times, but not for long, and then he lapses back into selfishness, attention grabbing, and being a glory hog. Can you even begin to imagine Jesus acting like this guy...yelling out bam, ban, bam, pushing people over, punching them and knocking them across a room? This is a total circus act, and as Christians we have fallen for it. Can anyone say Elmer Gantry? Discern the spirits...the Bible does not say "give him the benefit of the doubt"...it calls us to discern...and to do that we need to be able to rightly handle the Word of Truth, and to be able to listen to the Lord's voice...and they will always match up. This whole Lakeland thing looks like another massive demonic deception, just like with the Kansas City false prophets, and the Toronto mess. Neither of those brought any lasting fruit, but they did bring massive amounts of confusion and pain to thousands of churches across the country that got involved in it, and later pulled out of it, only to suffer greatly as they were torn apart.
At May 24, 2008 1:16 AM ,
Dana said...
Wow! So much being said about all this. It makes me smile to know that our hearts are being shaken or awakened to something other than "church as usual". I love the stability and comfort of my home church - my pastors teach and guide me well, even during all the controversy of the outpourings.
It is our right and privilage to voice our opinions and concerns about anything that occurs in our daily life that causes people to stop, look and listen. Some things have never changed.....Jesus caused "chaos" everywhere He went! How dare Him heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons, and so much more the Bible cannot even contain. Can you imagine what that did to the people who wanted church to stay "as usual" then?
I would venture to say that it caused quite a stir then just as this outpouring is causing now. People wondered if it was "from God" then too. Being so afraid of the supernatural, to which I can understand if you do not know who the source is and where the affections of ones heart is. But where was Jesus heart? He had intimacy with HIS Father in Heaven and did & said what the Father did & said. When Jesus is your first love, HE is your source of it all. All includes everything mentioned in the scriptures which includes supernatural stuff. You cannot separate it out of the Bible. If a yielded vessel who makes Jesus their first love chooses to be used in a way to bring others to Christ whether it be through a healing, an encounter with God Himself, or some other manifestation of the Holy Spirit - then so be it. These ways cause people to either go to another level in Christ not known before, or makes them hungry and thirsty for more of HIM. They will then pursue HIM. But it is a choice of the human will at that point to pursue. Some people will go home and be stubborn and go back to the way things were losing what they could have had, and others will be transformed. I have seen it. But there is good fruit coming from Florida. I look at the fruit of who God is using to be a vessel too. Is he glorifying Jesus? Is Jesus getting the credit for the healings, signs, and wonders? Does this person love to be in the Presence of God? Does this person have a humble heart? Is Jesus their first love?
Some vessels are more soft around the edges than others. But isn't is up to God to choose who HE wants to use where and when? God knows what it will take to accomplish what HE wants and if it is by sending a tatoo covered man who likes to get crazy for God and gets a little excited about what God is doing, then have at it.
I have seen a 30 year New Age lady come to Christ just recently because we met her where she was at and showed her the true love of Christ. She had an encounter with Jesus. The fruit is her mind being transformed and her heart. Jesus will fix what needs fixed along with a good foundation church. Then I saw a 82 yr old Christian man (having served in the church over 60 yrs) have a major encounter with Jesus, been healed, set free, and an angel visibly show himself to him - but because of this man's arrogance that he knew it all, did not even try to pursue Jesus as his first love instead choosing to rely on old mindsets and was worse than before. No one could tell him anything or show him how to abide in that secret place - he was too prideful and didn't think he needed it. He lost his chance by choice. He could have been so happy and at peace.
God created the supernatural and it is time that the church learned a few things about it. It was ours to begin with, we need to take it back and not be afraid of it.
I live in an area of huge New Age influence and occult activity. Let me tell you about growing up in fear of it. But as I have searched the scriptures, I have learned a few things too. About who we are in Christ and the authority we can walk in. New Age has some truth to it, just a perverted version of the real truth void of Jesus. They are some of the easiest to accept Jesus into their hearts! The don't scare me anymore because my Jesus is bigger than any of their beliefs and the real truth will set them free!
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
The violent are a people of keen enthusiasm and committment who are willing to respond to and propagate with radical abandonment the message and dynamic of God's reign. The kingdom of darkness has set up shop and it will take a radical reaction of people sold out to Christ to take it by force.
Hmmmmm, sounds like what is going on in Florida!
You see, if this outpouring is going to grow and keep going, then no one will get in the way of God doing it.
So do ask yourself if your heart is in right alignment with right motives with Jesus so when it comes your way you too can stand up to the opinions and criticizms of others. I know I did.
So I want to thank everyone who has questioned, condemnd, criticized, mocked, and been afraid. For it has made me search my heart and deeper into the scriptures to which I know where I stand in all this. It has made my heart burn even hotter for Christ to show up and rock everyones world who needs it. Transforming lives through healings, signs, and wonders if need be. Oh yea, it's ok with me if God sends an occasional ministering angel to help out as it is a big world out there.
God bless you all and let your heart burn for Christ.
At May 24, 2008 5:24 PM ,
airdfamily316 said...
Dear Steve,
I have been following a number of the threads and blogs concerning 'The Lakeland revival'. And a lot of people have shown concern about a number of certain manifestations from Angels, jerking and bamming people. As you know these are only a few of the "manifestations". Now, I know God can do whatever He wants to do but He will never infringe upon a persons freewill and so my question is this - do the signs that are being displayed point to Christ or to a man? This is a genuine question that I believe deserves serious consideration and response. Yes, there is always the flesh at work, and there are counterfeit signs and miracles manifested.
But what I want to know is why hasn't anyone approached Todd about the things said and done. I mean if there are leaders who love and respect Todd, don't you think that they would counsel with him and help him. Its though everyone is watching for the glorious mistake to happen (of which there has been a few) and nobody on national leadership is willing to come alongside and help. I could be wrong and I would be willing to admit that I am.
Oh yes, in regards to the 'Welsh Revival' it's affects were felt world wide. Through Europe, Asia, Africa, North America and many other parts of the World. You may Remember that Frank Bartleman was in correspondance with Evan Roberts before Azusa St. Revival broke out. As for a reference you may want to look over the material even old video footage of J. Edwin Orr perhaps one the best revival historians there was. As he travelled around the world gathering so many testimonies about differents revivals and how God impacted society. Even Leonard Ravehill is a good source regarding revivals.
Peace,
Jonathan
At May 27, 2008 12:32 PM ,
Bonofied1 said...
I have a major question. first I do not deny the ability of God to move in a way He deems as revival.
I believe with all of my heart and soul that God's Spirit will be poured out in ways unimaginable by mankind...however, one must ask this... why do you suppose it necessary for those "touched" by God to writhe on the floor like they have absolutely no sense? Is it percieved as more holy? Is it considered more acceptable and interpreted as intense if they act like that? Does God get glorified in such sillyness? Just WHO & Where is the attention being drawn to by such displays?
I am not offended by a bam yelling, tatoo wearing messenger, I know God will use whomever He choses, and that He uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise... God has even used a donkey to get His message across... But, I am offended by the lack of holy reverence given to our Most High & Holy God. I am offended by the lack of respect given to His Holy Spirit and I am deeply offended that some would take an opportunity to writhe, shake, run and foam at the mouth on the floor and call it a "touch from God". Please, I could do nothing more than say, "Give me a break!"
What is revival? Is revival truely about what can be done for mankind, or is it mankind discovering that he/she should bow their knee and confess Jesus Christ is Lord? Is revival all about US? Or is revival all about GOD? Isn't revival all about mankind submitting their will under God's authority? Isn't revival understanding that we are so unworthy of His love, grace and mercy? Isn't revival loving God 100% with all of our hearts, minds, souls & strength, and loving our neighbors as ourselves?
Isn't revival conforming our hearts, minds and souls to what God expects from us instead of how we expect God to minister to us? What exactly are we seeking the One who works miracles or miracles themselves?
I do believe that God heals today-100% absolutely, positively believe, I also believe God raises people from the dead-100% absolutely, positively believe. What I don't believe is that it takes a circus to bring the realization to God's Bride that He is still in the business of healing and delivering people.
What about the people who are making the claims of healing, how have hearts and lives been changed outside of the "healing" they recieved? The fire those who have claimed to receive, what are they doing with it? How is God being glorified? How is Jesus being lifted up? How is the harvest being reaped? Is it stories about God or stories about what an individual has done?
It's funny that Mr. Strang used the observation "Benny Hinn with tattoo's" because that is exactly what I thought of. I used to believe in the ministry of Benny Hinn, even defended it & the millions upon millions he raked in as a result...that is until I actually attended one of Mr. Hinn's crusades. When Mr. Hinn announced to Holy Ghost had arrived-I felt nothing (and believe me, the Holy Ghost and I are on first name basis! I talk to God every day and pray in the Spirit a lot!) Then I watched as the ushers went here and there picking people out of the audience, while bypassing a mother & father with a child on a stretcher. I noticed these people didn't act or react as if anything extra ordinary had happened to them, the usher got them out of their seat or from where they were standing and led them to the stage where they recounted (with much enthusiasm) how God had touched them. The atmosphere wasn't one in which the Power and Spirit of the living God had done anything in, but more of a show being given.
Am I saying this is what is going on in Lakeland. I won't make that call because I have not seen it firsthand, however,
I have done a little research on Todd Bentley, I have YouTubed him and have found some things that are unsettling. Such as in the majority of his meetings there are several people who writhe on the floor in such a manner that I expected to see them foaming at the mouth. Some act like they are running on the floor, some going in circles, some standing and their arms going up and down continuously, some screaming that continues on and on, and so on. Give God a little more credit than that! Give HIM A LITTLE MORE RESPECT PLEASE!
I've listened to other's talk about receiving the "Break Anointing" through the waves of sound (using a CD and speakers)as if it is some magical, mystical thing Mr. Bentley has discovered.
I also find it quite disturbing that on Mr. Bentley's web site is the button "Sew seed into revival now" as if God will cause revival to happen by giving money to his ministry.
I also found it quite disturbing that Ignite Church leaders tell those in attendance that if the person doing the praying isn't wearing an Ignite Church badge then they shouldn't minister to anyone. Since when did God need a "credentialed" person to minister through?
I do not pass judgement on Mr. Bentley or His ministry, but I caution each and every one to test the spirits, don't get caught up in hype, but test the spirits in Jesus Name!
At May 28, 2008 9:25 AM ,
firestorm08 said...
Is the gospel for everyone?
Some of the comments are negative about Paul Cain.
Is the Gospel for him to be forgiven and restored or not?
Has any one ever listened to Todd's
cd Soaking in the Place?
Outstanding ... It will walk you in to a closer walk with Jesus
At May 28, 2008 9:51 AM ,
firestorm08 said...
I was just reading on the Azusa Street Outpouring with Br. Seymour.
I am suprised to say the critics 100 years ago were
saying much of the same things that are being said about the Florida Outpouring.
The devil is still steal killing and destroying. I do believe it is the stronghould of unbelief that is over America.
I don't think we can "talk " it out of a nation...we can only fast and pray.
At June 3, 2008 7:11 PM ,
Ragpicker said...
The move of God....what a joy to hear of all the great things that are happening in Lakeland and other places, I have been so blessed..there is one thing that I like to see this time, in this move and that is to see ministers like Todd Bently travel from place to place and not just have the people take the inpartation back to there churc, like in the book of Acts many times the apostles
went from house to house (churches)them selves and where ever THEY went there went the power of God WITH THEM, it would be great to see Todd's ministry take that anionting Themselves to the people, I beleave it will really spread fast and more cities will be moved...
At June 14, 2008 2:11 PM ,
Karen said...
Julie, I totally concur with your observations, and several others as well, concerning some of the irregularities going on in FL. I, myself, have MANY concerns, and am very conflicted by what I hear. On one hand, I don't want to be guilty of negativity of a true move of God, but on the other hand, everything MUST be held up to the light of scripture!
When I was in seminary, I took a course on the history of revival, and THE ONE THING that was central to all true revivals was the preaching of repentance from sin, not signs and wonders, though they often accompanied those revivals. Unfortunately, this is what seems to be almost non-existent in this FL revival. The ONE thing that Satan cannot/will not copy is true and genuine, life-changing and community-changing repentance from sin! All other manifestations can be duplicated by Satan. For some reason, so many charismatics think that if it's a miracle, it's from God! That is a DIRECT result of the people of God not "studying to show thyself approved." There is a very serious disregard of grounding in the Word of God in most segments of the charismatic community. This is akin to the situational ethics of the world, that says "if it feels right, do it!" Too many of us rely on feelings for discernment rather than the scriptures (mostly because we don't know them!), and have fallen into elements of loose theology, if not downright false theology! God gave us a guidebook, and He expects us to use it, not warm-fuzzies to discern whether a thing is from Him! We are even warned by Christ himself that there will be those that 'look' like the real thing, but in reality are not His. They will even do miracles and cast out demons! That does not make them a minister of God! I'm not saying that Todd Bentley is not of God, but certainly, much of what he says and does is not! Jesus used some unorthodox ways to heal people, but he never, ever injured them, as Todd has (kneeing people, knocking teeth out, etc.--you can view video of this on youtube--.) Just the fact that several people have received demonic spirits when he laid hands on them, is VERY concerning! Where did these demons come from?
Others on this blog, and elsewhere, have commented on the "angel" manifestations, and the vistits to the "third heaven." Certainly, there are dozens of places in scripture where angels appeared to God's people to help them in some way, but these instances were singular, or very rare, and in every case, were in relationship to an extraordinary circumstance, and were not on a regular, even daily basis! If even Jesus and the Apostle Paul did not have daily visitations and trips into the "third heaven," then how can we believe that Todd Bentley is experiencing this?? Is he more in tune with the Father than The Son?? WE HAVE TO ASK THE TOUGH QUESTIONS!! How else can we really get to the truth? Most of us that are addressing these valid areas of concern are not wanting to destroy any ministry or move of God, but instead are wanting to give correction where it is needed. If a ministry or minister is not open to correction, then they should not be allowed to minister to God's people, until they are humble and teachable. As much good as they do give is off-set by the harm they do to the body of Christ and the shame they bring to God and Christians! I once had a very wise pastor that said, in relation to a decision of the church elders, that if there was even one person in the body that had a problem with the decision, that that person's questions would be addressed, and prayed over, lest that person was truly hearing God, and the rest were not clearly hearing God! Oh, that that were true in this instance! Certainly, I don't pretend to know everything, or especially people's hearts, but the "fruit" seems to speak for itself. Despite the fact that so many mature believers in the body of Christ have issued warnings, there seems to be no serious regard of them by the FL outpouring leaders. Maturity seems to be sadly lacking there. As important as operating in the gifts of the Spirit is, the primary role of the prophet is not as a "seer," but as a watchman on the wall, calling others to repentance and holiness. Where is this evidenced in Todd Bentley's life?
At June 21, 2008 2:57 PM ,
Caron said...
Justin Peters spoke about this on Way of the Master... See: filesfromtoni - http://filesfromtoni.blogspot.com/
Justin speaks out on the WoF movement and is considered by some to be an expert on it... At http://www.justinpeters.org you can click on "demo" and see a presentation he gave to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary on this... It is a brief overview of his seminar called, "A Call for Discernment."
He spoke at my church and comes highly recommended by my pastor, Dr. John MacArthur.
At July 28, 2008 9:39 PM ,
jkb2712 said...
Why does it seem like there is always a need for us to seek the latest "outpouring"? As a lifelong spirit filled believer I have heard continually about moves of God here and there throuhgout the world. Many of the churches I have been a part of make it their duty to report on this. We're always searching for these revivals. I've come to the point where I don't want the supernatural, I just want a closer relationship with God and to know Him more. To be honest I don't understand the "supernatural", it's completely confusing and sometimes scary. It's become junk food compared to the nourishment I find in the Lord and dwelling in His word. I believe in miracles of healing and have even experienced them personally. I know God heals. I become concerned when I see Christians seek the healing and the miracles in lieu of seeking the Lord. I don't think being a Christian was ever meant to be this complicated. Becoming more and more like Christ is what it all comes down to. Lord help us to seek you and know you.
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